Take your choice: Pagan to the left or pagan to the right

Published Wednesday, September 03, 2008 11:14 AM
McCain's selection of Palin proves he is the pagan-minded people-pleaser that his past Senate record already proved. It sickens me that he chose this oxymoronic "feminist for life" with an adulterous 17 year old daughter. It sickens me most because he is presenting this family to us all as some sort of glorious model. No, the Palin family is a sick family, walking the path of deception, needing healing, not acclaim. McCain is no different than Obama. Either of these men, if elected, will represent God's continued judgment on our apostate nation. Voting for either of these tickets, dear Christian readers, will be a sinful act requiring the covering of the blood of Christ. Chuck Baldwin is the only candidate that any Christian can vote for and not violate the Word of God. I beg you, trust in God, not in the most recent poll, not in pragmatism. Cast a vote that will not violate the revealed will of God. Vote for Chuck Baldwin. And, reject pragmatism in your local, state and congressional election choices. Vote for a man that meets the Biblical requirements, or do not vote. Or, join in bringing God's judgment on our land by voting for McCain, or Obama, or some other deceived people-pleasing, pagan-minded blind one. Respectfully, B8


# j15bell said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 11:33 AM

Like her or not. Good or bad. Whatever one's choice is. I predict I am looking at the future president of this United States when I see her in the news.  I can't shake the feeling.  If not because of some kind of unfortunate demise of McCain then after he serves his stint. Palin is stuck in the middle with us and I don't think McCain is responsible for this decision.  This is not in support of any political side or any individual running in this race.  Just an observation and an immediate gut feeling every time I see her.  

Sarah' not so plain and tall!

# Joe Napalm said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 12:49 PM

Oh, look, someone who supports the right to secede. Why does it always have to go back to the Civil War for goodness sake?

# Thomas said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:33 PM

As we choose our leaders for the United States we need to look at a variety of issues.  Of course Biblical requirements is a big issue for many -- myself included.  However, many of us remember the days of a president who was not ashamed to say he was a Sunday School teacher, yet he was a terrible leader.  Yet, President Lincoln appears to have claimed no religious affiliation and was an excellent leader in a time of political division.  While McCain is no Lincoln, he has qualities of a leader -- something Obama does not have.  So in terms of secular leadership, there is a big difference between McCain and Obama.

Bahnsen8, have you looked into God's play book and now proclaim it a sin to vote for no one other than Baldwin?

# jt400 said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:57 PM

AMEN! I completely agree.

# jt400 said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:59 PM

Meaning Bahnsen8...

# WesleySonofCornelius said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:11 PM

Uh oh, Thomas ... you said the "L" word.  That man doesn't get much respect around here.  Prepare to see sparks fly.

I believe every Christian should pray and honestly think on who they should cast a vote for.  However, the biggest test will be after a candidate is selected.  If we take the Bible at face value, who ever is next president will have been instituted by God (Rom. 13:2, 3).  The question is, will the Christians have a heart like David who mourned for King Saul and even in times of distress respected the Lord's annointed (2 Sam. 1:14).

# Bahnsen8 said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:52 PM

I have been missing this. Looks like we may need to transition this one over to the forums.....

# jt400 said on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:53 PM

Wesley, I guess I won't get into Mr. L... LOL!

Bahnsen8, I put up a post about it...

# Joe Napalm said on Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:48 AM

Well said, Thomas.

# Thomas said on Thursday, September 04, 2008 1:12 PM

Wesley, thank you for the heads up on Mr. L.  However, one of the key elements that made Lincoln such a great leader was his ability to hold together a large, highly divided nation.  Take for example a modern day scenario.  The world's focus has recently been on the nation of China.  If China could some how produce a leader who could unify its borders with Tibet and Taiwan, we could consider that individual a successful and great leader.  This unification amongst diversity has been a large issue for past nations.  Look at Alexander the Great's empire after his death as well as Charlemagne's empire after the death of his son Louis.

While the US is not on the brink of total division like previous examples, as a mindset we are not unified on goals and strategies.  McCain, as compared to Obama, has the best potential to unify the United States; and is therefore, in secular terms, the best choice for a leader.

# WesleySonofCornelius said on Thursday, September 04, 2008 2:38 PM

B8, if Israel was a democracy during the time of Samuel, would you have voted for David?  Why or why not?

# Bahnsen8 said on Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:34 PM

Lincoln held nothing together.

He destroyed the prior voluntary confederated union and created a coerced union based only on power.

Thomas, Lincoln did nothing special. He just used power to get his own way. That is not an example of leadership. That is an example of tyranny.



# Joe Napalm said on Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:23 PM


Honest question: Who was the greatest president of the US?


# Bahnsen8 said on Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:20 PM


I do not know. I have not studied every President, but I can say for sure that George Washington embodied many Biblical characteristics of leadership, and I do not buy the recent attacks on his faith which make him out to be a Deist. Your statment on the forum that he never claimed to be a Christian is simply not true. Read the recent historical gold standard on the life of Washington, "Sacred Fire" and you will see what I am talking about.



# Bahnsen8 said on Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:21 PM


If a bullfrog had a machine gun mounted on its backside, would it have to worry about snakes?



# WesleySonofCornelius said on Friday, September 05, 2008 8:49 AM

B8, you make me shake my head sometimes.

Let me get down to it and be blunt.  McCain and Palin are not the ideal choice.  I disagree with many of McCain's views.  I do not trust him on immigration and "global temperature change."  At the same time, God's Holy Word is not central in his life.  However, I am very troubled with the pious (some what hypocritical) attitude shown in this post.

It sickens me that Christians, like the Pharisees, are quick to pick up a stone and hurl it at the next adulterous 17 year old.  B8, you come across like the mud slinging media.  Is having a child out of wedlock a sin and displeasing to God?  Definitely!  But I forgot, we are not as holy and righteous as B8 with his glorious family (which is ironic that a man follows devoutly the teaching of a theologian who divorced his wife, which if I recall is also a horrible sin).

Interestingly, does it sicken you that God chose me a "sinner for life" who commits adultery against God every time I stray from the Bride Groom?  Does it sicken you that this same Bride Groom presents me before the infinite and all-powerful God as a pure and righteous creature?  Yes, Wesley is a sick individual, walking the path of deception, needing healing, not acclaim.

Does this line of thought justify me choosing a man like McCain?  Absolutely not.  Am I upset that you want to vote for Baldwin over McCain?  Heavens no.  I am glad you brought my attention to this hidden candidate.

Apostate nation?  As a nation who selected men like Adams, Jefferson, Madison, or Lincoln for that matter, Kennedy, Bush and Clinton was ever NOT an apostate nation?  How soon we forget the horrible sins of our fathers!

Now, the real question should be if I had a machine gun mounted on my backside, would I have to worry about silly questions from B8?

# Bahnsen8 said on Friday, September 05, 2008 9:33 AM


Again, brother, you seem to misunderstand the outcome of grace in the life of believers, and in how we are to make decisions in this life. The grace of the gospel frees us from sin, judgment and death's sting. The grace of the gospel does NOT free us from the consequences of our sins or crimes in this life. Thus, when the Bible spells out clear qualifications for leadership, in the home, or church, or civil state, these qualifications cannot be ignored under your guise of misguided thoughts on grace. No, Wesley, your views on grace undo the foundation of societal health because you would (it seems) have us ignore all past behaviors according to your form of grace. This is anarchy, not grace.

Your sarcastic words regarding my family appear to be an intentional attempt to insult me. I am offended and grieved. You are forgiven. I made no comparisons between my family and the Palin family. You did that. But, there is a standard of righteousness, and it is not my family. You need to see that you have swallowed the lie that there is no standard, and you call this yummy lie grace.

And, yes, Wesley, there was a time when most of this nation was submitted to God and His Ways, humble before Him and aware that "unless the Lord watches the city, the watchers watch in vain." Of course, no nation has been or ever will be perfect. That is not the point. But, there is a standard for national righteousness, and that standard is not America. Nonetheless, there was a time when this nation was more a people of humility and fear and love toward God, and the attitude and leadership of the nation reflected this fact, even if the leaders may not have been Christians "in the first sense." The result was the protection and blessing of God, as He promises in His Word. Today, the opposite is true. We are mostly a nation that hates God and His Ways. And, as He warns in His Word, He is bringing His judgment upon us, in various ways, not the least of which is the wicked rulers He is placing over us.

I devoutly follow the teaching of the Bible, to the best of my ability, according to the grace given by God's Spirit. You like to ignore what I say by believing it is from a man named Bahnsen. Then again, self-deception is the specialty of the day for most government-school junkies. (of which I am a recovering junky)



# WesleySonofCornelius said on Friday, September 05, 2008 10:53 AM

My attempt was not to intentionally insult you.  My attempt was to make it personal.  Would Palin be offended and grieved at your attack on her daughter?

From reading the very biased views and overlooking many historical facts of those here and in the forums concerning US history, self-deception is not only a specialty for most government-school junkies but homeschooled-isolationalists as well!

# WesleySonofCornelius said on Friday, September 05, 2008 12:14 PM

I am reminded that Paul told Timothy to "have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.  And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness." (2 Tim. 2:23-25)

As many on this weblog and forum know, I fail in this area.  I pray that God would forgive me and give me patience and self-control.

I now have food in my stomach.  I am relaxed, and now I write with a calm demeanor.

Some know that I tried to leave for an extended period of time, but could not.  The reason is that I like to learn.  I also believe it is very beneficial for men and women to have their views tested--broken apart in open forum.  If we do not, our views go unchecked, and in this fallen world they start to take us over.

Therefore, I will now quietly step away from this discussion.

# Joe Napalm said on Friday, September 05, 2008 1:13 PM

Why do statements like "there was a time when most of this nation was submitted to God and His Ways" go unchallenged? When was this time? During the Revolutionary War, brothels, gambling and stealing were the norm in many cities. I think someone has mythologized our history and gets away with it.

Give me good examples -- not books that I can buy at Vision Forum.

# jt400 said on Friday, September 05, 2008 3:33 PM

Wesley, I understand that you do not want to continue. However, in a previous discussion on Lincoln, you said that the taking of innocent life is a terrible sin. I agree, and McCain is strongly pro-murder, sometimes called pro-choice. By what standard are the homeschooled-isolationists (whatever that's supposed to mean), self-deceived? (You don't have to answer.)

# Bahnsen8 said on Saturday, September 06, 2008 7:33 AM


Your example of the presence of unrighteousness in the past is not the heart of the issue. Of course there has always been and will always be sinful hearts and behaviors in this world. The issue is, what is the stance of the church and the state toward this unrighteous behavior. Check the local and state laws regarding adultery and fornication in those days, and you will see a great difference between then and now. Check the sermons preached from those days, and you will see a great difference between then and now. The nation certainly had its share of unbelievers and sinners, but, as I said before, by and large, it was a Christian nation, based upon Biblical Law primarily, whether they were Christians "in the first sense" or not.

Regarding your Vision Forum jab, I assume you are joking, because I know you are the kind of man who is courageous enough to fully consider the ideas of those with whom you disagree. Furthermore, "Sacred Fire" is published by Providence Forum, not Vision Forum: www.providenceforum.org/home

Peter Lillback, in his book Sacred Fire, answers the criticism of George Washington. Part of the answer is his extensive description of the cultural expectations of the time, which also bears somewhat on your words regarding the presence of brothels at that time. It is a very long book, FILLED with primary resource after primary resource, written kindly and persuasively. I recommend it to you, my friend.


# Joe Napalm said on Saturday, September 06, 2008 9:41 AM

The only thing that will fix this problem is a face-to-face discussion over coffee. We go in circles on this blamed website.

# Bahnsen8 said on Saturday, September 06, 2008 10:28 AM

I am glad to hear you are now willing to let me have coffee!!

# Fluffy Cow said on Saturday, September 06, 2008 1:36 PM

How much are tickets for the "Coffee Meeting???"

# Joe Napalm said on Saturday, September 06, 2008 9:39 PM

Free if you'll bring the boxing gloves.

# Fluffy Cow said on Saturday, September 06, 2008 10:08 PM

I'll see what I can do...

# jt400 said on Saturday, September 06, 2008 11:21 PM

Good lace-up leather ones... ;-)

# Bahnsen8 said on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:28 PM

I'm a lover, not a fighter.